Black Lives Matter
#76
(07-09-2016, 08:30 PM)God Wrote: what are your specific proposals to improve the situation of american blacks in general solly? my own would be completely economic in nature and have nothing to do with race qua race, though from what you've said on the matter before i assume you would feel differently.

I think its difficult to deny the uplifting effect Affirmative Action has had on the US (unless that's what you're talking about). I think acknowledgement and general policy reform by American police would just go a long way - a la Las Vegas, which acknowledged racial discrimination in their department at saw a subsequent drop in police killings by 33%. I think there needs to be some legal reform in the justice system regarding racial discrimination - black and hispanic people receive much longer sentences for the same crimes than white people. I think the biggest change that could be made is an overhaul of State education systems to have a bigger emphasis on the history of racial discrimination in America and the on-going effects of this discrimination - such reforms were put in place by the Alberta government regarding Aboriginal Reform Schools, and there was a subsequent drop in racial discrimination. There is also the matter of housing and red-lining, but I'm not sure what my solution to that issue would be other than the long-term one of better education.

Aside from that, I agree most of the reform that could be done would be more general in nature. General wealth redistribution policy, better protections for lower-class workers, drug and sex worker reform, etc. etc. TBH Tim, I agree with you on the point that a lot of the suffering of racial minorities comes simply from income inequality. However, I also think that ignoring the social factors which leads to their disproportionate placement in the lower class is regressive and reductionist. There can be more than one cause of suffering.
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#77
(07-09-2016, 08:22 PM)Slam Ander Wrote:
(07-09-2016, 07:55 PM)Tex Wrote:
Quote:Also, I blatantly disagree with this. What is your proposed solution, policy change?

My proposed solution would be a shift in culture, as it is true that there is a racial bias towards black people in America en mass. As mentioned above, a movement that pushes for awareness and change, while acknowledging and dismissing toxic members that spread hatred, is probably something that would actually be a huge impact if it had enough steam behind it.

Something akin to the days of MLK.

But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either. It mixed and melded with Vietnam protestors, college students, and, yes, the LGBT community. People look back at the March on Washington as some kind of ideal of civil protest, forgetting that, at the time, the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

Quote:But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either.

Regardless, it was still far more organized, had clear goals, pushed for change in many peaceful ways, and iirc, had a far lesser rate of vitriol behind it which didn't dampen it's message or goals nearly as much as BLM supporters do on a regular basis.

Quote:the LGBT community

You mean that community that didn't even exist as a movement until 1983?

Quote:the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

I quite doubt that. Perhaps a few are similar, but I'd have to see some sources here.
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#78
(07-10-2016, 07:47 AM)Tex Wrote:
(07-09-2016, 08:22 PM)Slam Ander Wrote:
(07-09-2016, 07:55 PM)Tex Wrote:
Quote:Also, I blatantly disagree with this. What is your proposed solution, policy change?

My proposed solution would be a shift in culture, as it is true that there is a racial bias towards black people in America en mass. As mentioned above, a movement that pushes for awareness and change, while acknowledging and dismissing toxic members that spread hatred, is probably something that would actually be a huge impact if it had enough steam behind it.

Something akin to the days of MLK.

But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either. It mixed and melded with Vietnam protestors, college students, and, yes, the LGBT community. People look back at the March on Washington as some kind of ideal of civil protest, forgetting that, at the time, the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

Quote:But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either.

Regardless, it was still far more organized, had clear goals, pushed for change in many peaceful ways, and iirc, had a far lesser rate of vitriol behind it which didn't dampen it's message or goals nearly as much as BLM supporters do on a regular basis.

Quote:the LGBT community

You mean that community that didn't even exist as a movement until 1983?

Quote:the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

I quite doubt that. Perhaps a few are similar, but I'd have to see some sources here.

I'd like to see your sources for the 1960s civil rights movement being "well organized and less vitriol". Also, no LGBT movement until 1983? Are you fucking kidding me?
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#79
(07-10-2016, 09:42 AM)Slam Ander Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:47 AM)Tex Wrote:
(07-09-2016, 08:22 PM)Slam Ander Wrote:
(07-09-2016, 07:55 PM)Tex Wrote:
Quote:Also, I blatantly disagree with this. What is your proposed solution, policy change?

My proposed solution would be a shift in culture, as it is true that there is a racial bias towards black people in America en mass. As mentioned above, a movement that pushes for awareness and change, while acknowledging and dismissing toxic members that spread hatred, is probably something that would actually be a huge impact if it had enough steam behind it.

Something akin to the days of MLK.

But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either. It mixed and melded with Vietnam protestors, college students, and, yes, the LGBT community. People look back at the March on Washington as some kind of ideal of civil protest, forgetting that, at the time, the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

Quote:But that's the thing. MLK Jr.'s movement wasn't some unified front either.

Regardless, it was still far more organized, had clear goals, pushed for change in many peaceful ways, and iirc, had a far lesser rate of vitriol behind it which didn't dampen it's message or goals nearly as much as BLM supporters do on a regular basis.

Quote:the LGBT community

You mean that community that didn't even exist as a movement until 1983?

Quote:the civil rights movement had the same criticisms flung at it as BLM does today.

I quite doubt that. Perhaps a few are similar, but I'd have to see some sources here.

I'd like to see your sources for the 1960s civil rights movement being "well organized and less vitriol". Also, no LGBT movement until 1983? Are you fucking kidding me?

Burden of proof lies with you on this one, or is it me? I've lost track. Either way, I'd be glad to find some information once I'm free tomorrow.

My mistake on the LGBT movement, by the way. I think their movement actually picked up steam and saw real coordination in 1970, with the earliest type of organizations founded in 1924.
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#80
(07-10-2016, 07:47 AM)Tex Wrote: I quite doubt that. Perhaps a few are similar, but I'd have to see some sources here.

http://fusion.net/story/184032/black-liv...hate-mail/

With the exception of the word 'niggers' these letters could easily be confused as even worse written versions of your posts in this thread.
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#81
http://imgur.com/gallery/1Db5X?lr=0#HNdztE8

Some more for you cowbo
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#82
Hmm, ironic that criticism of the civil rights movement would start up just around the time that Malcom X started flailing his extremely violent methods about, opposing MLK's entire methodology, and getting less done with his methods. It's almost like Malcom X brought the entire movement down with his methods, and gave the civil rights movement a bad name.

It's also funny how every piece of legislation that the civil rights movement was responsible for getting pushed into place was solidified between 1964-1968 before the black panthers were most active. It can be argued that they showed an entire country that black people weren't going to just sit back and take racism like dogs, but those actions when compared to our society in 2016 are literally barbaric.

Can you find me some information that criticized MLK's peaceful and non-violent ways prior to the black panther movement's actions? Maybe more than like, ten letters?

Some of the most well focused/organized protests during the civil rights movement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Riders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_M...ry_marches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._B...Background
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine

If you're not noticing a trend of non-violence, and appropriate discourse according to their timeline (Which is a huge factor mind you) then you may want to look again, and again... And... Again...

Look at the timeline of influential protests and movements over the course of the civil rights movement yourself and you'll notice that up until the days of Malcom X, there was a lot of progress made. After the black panthers? Not so much. It's almost like pacifism gets more done than violence and disgusting behavior.

It's almost like the actions of a few loud, violent protesters, completely outweighed the actions of many peaceful protesters.

Again, it could be argued that Malcom's movement was a necessity, but if you're going to argue that anything similar to that is necessary in 2016, I'm just going to lump you in the same category as people that think the holocaust wasn't real.

At any Rate, BLM is being dragged down by its negative members. It's whiny, as opposed to the Civil rights movement, which was tackling MUCH MORE IMPORTANT issues. Like, the disparity between the issues that BLM pushes for, and the issues that the 1960's civil rights movement tackled is absolutely enormous. It's startling, really.

Here's a statement made by a former black panther, a man who was once violent, racist towards white people, and wanted to be heard, talking against BLM as movement today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMzpcTbJF-4

It's not exactly an end-all statement, but I think what he's saying has some credibility behind it. He's not completely in the right, but he does bring up a major issue with the mentality of BLM as it is today.
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#83
(07-10-2016, 07:06 PM)Tex Wrote: what he's saying has some credibility behind it.

I'd stick with that vid instead of your posts Tex, some is, after all, better than none.
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#84
Tex, Malcolm X was dead by 1965.
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#85
A year before the Panthers were even active. It's absolute fucking conjecture to trivialise the racist letters King received after Malcolm died on either Malcolm or the Panthers who were not even part of King's group.

Your whole argument has been absolute fucking bullshit, everytime you're challenged you just go off on some tangent about some other movement or incident, or #alllivesmatter or some other stupid, asinine attempt at deflecting the fact that BLM is a completely legitimate movement standing for a completely legitimate cause, regardless of whether they have lost their way a bit.
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#86
Nah king they're just entitled
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#87
(07-10-2016, 07:18 PM)King Wrote: Tex, Malcolm X was dead by 1965.

Ah, my bad. I'd misread his involvement with the black panthers at some point. Bah.
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#88
(07-10-2016, 07:21 PM)King Wrote: A year before the Panthers were even active. It's absolute fucking conjecture to trivialise the racist letters King received after Malcolm died on either Malcolm or the Panthers who were not even part of King's group.

Your whole argument has been absolute fucking bullshit, everytime you're challenged you just go off on some tangent about some other movement or incident, or #alllivesmatter or some other stupid, asinine attempt at deflecting the fact that BLM is a completely legitimate movement standing for a completely legitimate cause, regardless of whether they have lost their way a bit.


(07-10-2016, 07:25 PM)Slam Ander Wrote: Nah king they're just entitled

Does the prospect of civility ring hollow to you?

I've dealt with it up until now, but god damn.
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#89
Civility has no place on the remnants of Cosmo Forums Tex
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#90
(07-10-2016, 07:30 PM)King Wrote: Civility has no place on the remnants of Cosmo Forums Tex

Oh dear god.
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#91
(07-10-2016, 07:28 PM)Tex Wrote: Does the prospect of civility ring hollow to you?

I've dealt with it up until now, but god damn.

i agree

stop being dicks guys. tex has remained surprisingly chill with it - dont keep taking advantage of that.
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#92
(07-10-2016, 07:37 PM)Ascaris Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:28 PM)Tex Wrote: Does the prospect of civility ring hollow to you?

I've dealt with it up until now, but god damn.

i agree

stop being dicks guys. tex has remained surprisingly chill with it - dont keep taking advantage of that.

I don't see why I should have to be polite and entertain his constant ducking and diving and incredible stretches of logic and facts.

He never considered a movement that exists because of the lack of accountability over the murder of young black Americans by the people who should be there to stop murders to have any legitimate grounds to begin with, why even bother making a thread where he'll just defer anything he doesn't want to accept by going on another tangent?

His posts are near enough the same statements as those hate letters to King (the public hero, not me) with the exception Tex isn't outwardly racist (although I'm starting to wonder)

There's no reason for civility when dealing with someone who refuses to acknowledge anything.
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#93
(07-10-2016, 07:21 PM)King Wrote: A year before the Panthers were even active. It's absolute fucking conjecture to trivialize the racist letters King received after Malcolm died on either Malcolm or the Panthers who were not even part of King's group.

Right, I can admit that there have been similar criticisms of the civil rights movement, but I'm still hard pressed to believe that they were no where near as plentiful or reasonable as they are in the present day. And I still believe that the actions of the black panthers and Malcom himself had a negative effect on the movement as a whole. The biggest difference is that the civil rights movement pushed for their goals in constructive ways with focused protests, regardless of how spread out the movement was.

Quote:Your whole argument has been absolute fucking bullshit, everytime you're challenged you just go off on some tangent about some other movement or incident, or #alllivesmatter or some other stupid, asinine attempt at deflecting the fact that BLM is a completely legitimate movement standing for a completely legitimate cause, regardless of whether they have lost their way a bit.

"Here's an anecdote about why your argument sucks lel"

You seem to regress back to ad hominem pretty damn often. I'm not exactly going to claim that I'm the best at holding my stance or expressing my views, as I tend to shift the goalposts from time to time without even noticing it, but really man? Come on.

Quote:He never considered a movement that exists because of the lack of accountability over the murder of young black Americans by the people who should be there to stop murders to have any legitimate grounds to begin with, why even bother making a thread where he'll just defer anything he doesn't want to accept by going on another tangent?

YES I HAVE! I just think it's too broad now, and has become flooded with narrow ideas. The type of racism in Ferguson does not ring true in every single state across America. Hell, the BLM movement should have been focusing their protests in areas where the volume of racism and innocent shootings was highest if they wanted any results.

Maaaan, I think I'm just really bad at conveying my points sometimes.
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#94
King shhhh it'll all be ok
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#95
(07-10-2016, 07:45 PM)Tex Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:21 PM)King Wrote: A year before the Panthers were even active. It's absolute fucking conjecture to trivialize the racist letters King received after Malcolm died on either Malcolm or the Panthers who were not even part of King's group.

Right, I can admit that there have been similar criticisms of the civil rights movement, but I'm still hard pressed to believe that they were no where near as plentiful or reasonable as they are in the present day. And I still believe that the actions of the black panthers and Malcom himself had a negative effect on the movement as a whole. The biggest difference is that the civil rights movement pushed for their goals in constructive ways with focused protests, regardless of how spread out the movement was.

Quote:Your whole argument has been absolute fucking bullshit, everytime you're challenged you just go off on some tangent about some other movement or incident, or #alllivesmatter or some other stupid, asinine attempt at deflecting the fact that BLM is a completely legitimate movement standing for a completely legitimate cause, regardless of whether they have lost their way a bit.

"Here's an anecdote about why your argument sucks lel"

You seem to regress back to ad hominem pretty damn often. I'm not exactly going to claim that I'm the best at holding my stance or expressing my views, as I tend to shift the goalposts from time to time without even noticing it, but really man? Come on.

Quote:He never considered a movement that exists because of the lack of accountability over the murder of young black Americans by the people who should be there to stop murders to have any legitimate grounds to begin with, why even bother making a thread where he'll just defer anything he doesn't want to accept by going on another tangent?

YES I HAVE! I just think it's too broad now, and has become flooded with narrow ideas. The type of racism in Ferguson does not ring true in every single state across America. Hell, the BLM movement should have been focusing their protests in areas where the volume of racism and innocent shootings was highest if they wanted any results.

Maaaan, I think I'm just really bad at conveying my points sometimes.

Tex buddy you outright claimed earlier (pg 2 I believe) that you never considered them legitimate. That isn't poorly explaining yourself, that's not an open ended statement.

The reason the criticisms were "less" was the advent of social media hadn't happened yet. Of course, King and his followers dealt with far more physical 'complaints' than BLM does because back then it was ok for people outside of the police to just beat and kill black Americans. Now it's only legal if you're wearing blue.
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#96
Social media is such a huge factor though, and if anything, it's had one of the most negative social impacts on BLM, and it's really important to take into consideration.

Oh, this?
Quote:I think it has to do with the fact that I wasn't particularly interested in acknowledging that BLM was a righteous cause to begin with. I am by no means excusing the disgusting behavior of law enforcement in Ferguson or any other parts of America.

It's not that I didn't acknowledge that they didn't have good intentions, it's that I wasn't interested in acknowledging it, because, well:

Quote:I believe that it is no longer a righteous movement, and mentioning that they had started off on the right foot is missing the point of my stance just a lil' bit. I don't think it strengthens, or weakens my argument, so I didn't really see much of a need to put it out there.

:/
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#97
(07-10-2016, 07:43 PM)King Wrote: I don't see why I should have to be polite and entertain his constant ducking and diving and incredible stretches of logic and facts.

because you spent three pages incessantly shitting on a guy who, for reasons that escape me, is still responding to your arguments with a level of patience and civility that you clearly dont deserve. i dont care how bad you think his arguments are nor do i care about whatever moral high ground youre placing yourself on to justify your insults. hes being nice to you. have some fucking respect.
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#98
(07-10-2016, 07:59 PM)Ascaris Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:43 PM)King Wrote: I don't see why I should have to be polite and entertain his constant ducking and diving and incredible stretches of logic and facts.

because you spent three pages incessantly shitting on a guy who, for reasons that escape me, is still responding to your arguments with a level of patience and civility that you clearly dont deserve. i dont care how bad you think his arguments are nor do i care about whatever moral high ground youre placing yourself on to vindicate your insults. hes being nice to you. have some fucking respect.

No.
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#99
same goes to you solly. tex's posts arent absurd enough for you to resort to posting a shitty meme (or is it a MACROHuh) in every other response.
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(07-10-2016, 08:00 PM)King Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:59 PM)Ascaris Wrote:
(07-10-2016, 07:43 PM)King Wrote: I don't see why I should have to be polite and entertain his constant ducking and diving and incredible stretches of logic and facts.

because you spent three pages incessantly shitting on a guy who, for reasons that escape me, is still responding to your arguments with a level of patience and civility that you clearly dont deserve. i dont care how bad you think his arguments are nor do i care about whatever moral high ground youre placing yourself on to vindicate your insults. hes being nice to you. have some fucking respect.

No.

WELL YOU KNOW WHAT KING


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